1Dan

I am, more than likely, one of the people that Jarrett is talking about. I attend the same college, am a member of the fraternity he represents, I am not a CEO of a major corporation, I am not very religious and, to his chagrin, a Bush supporter.

I think that the fundamental flaw in his thinking is only rich or religious people would vote for Bush, or otherwise recognize he is not the right man for the job. In this post, I will do my best to try and break that stereotype and give as many as my reasons for my support as I feel comfortable. Also, I think it's important to note that (and I think our founding fathers would agree) voicing your opinions through voting is NOT letting America down.

If anything, the War was not a reason for me to vote one way or another. I have two friends from high school that are soldiers and both agree; our troops serve America and our proud to fight for us. They are proud to make America better. I'm not a moron- nobody wants to die. Nobody wants to experience war, nobody wants to be charged with killing other human beings. But for whatever reason, so many brave soldiers are willing to go into combat, continue to enlist, and all they ask for is our support in return, not our ridicule.

As far as issues with abortion and gay marriages go, you don't have to be a zealot to have opinions on what is right and wrong, and for myself, my reasons are solely sociological that I agree with Bush. I know that the Bible Belt might not share this reasoning, they more than likely put religion first. But the fact that you see so many Bush supporters here in New England that always votes liberaly shows that religion is not a sole motivation. Personally, I think it's ridiculous for a man to choose what a woman does with her body, but I feel than an unborn baby has a right to live. Not because God says so, because I feel it is right. What bothers me is the same people that would advocate pro-choice, would fight against the death penalty for serial murderers. Death isn't a topic I would approach lightly, but if I had to pick, I would say an unborn child deserves life over a person that decided to pick murder up as a hobby.

I don't think either candidate in 2004 was absolutely right or absolutely wrong, I agreed with a lot of what Kerry said, but when it comes down to deciding I agreed more with Bush.

Part of the beauty of this country is that we're allowed to disagree. But part of disagreeing means disputing. It's important to keep an open mind in politics, but-with my experience- I know most people are not willing to change their minds on issues, even if they keep it open.

Jarrett might be surprised to find out that (and this is something I recently learned myself), when polled, more than half our school voted in favor of Bush. Despite all the College Democrats and Kerry/Edwards signs we saw this semester so far, more people from our college voted right than left. Did more than half the school let him down? Did more than half the school let America down?

No, the entire school voted on what they thought was right. They voted and because they did, they made America proud.

I know this is a bad analogy, but I like to think of politics as bartering at the dinner table. "I feel I have the right to my white meat and your potato salad." Well, I feel you don't have that right. I propose to elect someone that would not give my potato salad to you.

I don't think I let America down because I want to keep my potato salad.

November 4, 2004

2Barbara

Hear! Hear! Jarrett. Strong and cogent piece, particularly the "Get you damn religion out of my government!!!" I'm proud of you!
My gut tells me that your friend, whose comments appear above (and definitely deserves credit for braving to post here), doesn't quite get that the fuss isn't just about a difference of opinion. But I will let you debate that with him.
I just wanted to let you know I was impressed by the way you distinguished between Republicans and Bush supporters; this truly isn't a party thing, it's a distrust of Bush thing.

November 4, 2004

3Noah Brier

Dan, first off, thanks for posting. I appreciate hearing the other side. Before I argue with you, though, I really want to understand something. Was abortion the number one issue with you? What else made you vote for George Bush? What else did you agree with?

If it wasn't the war or his mishandling thereof that had any effect on your choice what made you choose? I know that our soldiers are proud to fight for this country and I'm proud to be an American that has soldiers willing to put their lives on the line for me. I support our troops 100 percent, but it doesn't mean I think they are there for a good reason.

I also have to argue the point you made about abortion and the death penalty. You fail to address the fact that this is life in an embryonic state, not yet a baby in many people's eyes. You have every right to your views, but I think this is a fundamental point in that debate.

Returning to the soldier thing for one more second, no one has ridiculed our soldiers. Saying people protesting are not supporting the troops is an age old strategy for keeping the agitators from voicing their opposition. If this is the country that you obviously believe in, where free speech and debate is a right, why can't we get out there and fight against this unjust war without being accused of not supporting those people dying for our freedom (not that I agree they are fighting for our freedom, but you get my drift).

I want to understand why you voted for George W. Bush (or against John Kerry). I want to know what he did in the last four years that merited your vote for a second term. I really want you to convince me that I've missed something, because I'm having a lot of trouble figuring it out. In my eyes, your friends are over there fighting because the president of the United States had his own agenda. If you don't believe me, why aren't we in North Korea? Iran? countries who actually have nuclear weapons capabilities? I just want to understand.

November 4, 2004

4Dan

Noah,

I appreciate the feedback, although I'm starting to feel as I went in over my head by responding to my friend's post. I was unware this site was (as I can see) solely Kerry supporters (I agree with Jarrett when distinguishing between parties and supporters, I don't see myself as a Republican as much as a supporter of candidates).

In response to your questions, I could go into my own reasons for each case, but I don't think it would do any good. Like I said before, even open minds have a hard time being changed. You want me to convince you that you've missed something, but I don't think you have. Even with you had, would you admit it? Even if I went into every reason why I wanted Bush over Kerry, all I would be doing is inviting more people to either come against me, others to come to support me, and more conflict, which isn't necessary here.

Instead, I'll clarify my intentions with the original response to the post. I have quite a lot of friends that voted for Kerry. While I feel debate over issues is healthy from time to time, what I do not think is that they are wrong in having a opinion.

I do not think any less of Jarrett for writing what he did, I know him personally and he is a fun outgoing guy, is doing a wonderful job as president of the fraternity on campus, and is going to become an incredible teacher some day. We just don't see eye to eye on politics, same way some people wanted to see Boston lose against New York. Simple as that.

However, I do not think *ANYONE* let America down because they voted, one way or another. You would be hard pressed to say that voting is unamerican. Voting is what America and Democracy is all about. Just because someone votes for another candidate doesn't mean they made a bad choice.

That was my main point, among many. I also wanted to show that educated, nonreligious people in PA would vote for Bush, breaking the "Bible Belt" stereotype.

Honestly, I think there would be hundreds of better choices other than Bush. I just think Bush is a better choice than Kerry.

November 4, 2004

5Noah Brier

Dan,

I'm asking you to please support your point. List your reasons for voting for Bush. I understand and agree with you that stereotyping is wrong and if you read my latest entry you can see that. But please respond to what I wrote you. You are the first person who has taken a different stance here and I am asking you to please support it and not back down just because you're surround by "solely Kerry supporters."

So I'm asking you to please go into your own reasons for each case so I can understand why you made the choices you did.

No one said that voting is un-American, but I agree with Jarrett that those who voted for Bush let down America because I believe, with all my heart, that this president will do great harm to my country. By deciding to vote for one president over another because you don't believe gay people should get married in a country where 'every man is created equal' is letting down America (I know this is not necessarily your situation, just using it as an example). I will not feel any differently until a Bush voter, like yourself, can explain to me the reasons that they voted for this man who clearly did a very poor job as president of the United States.

November 4, 2004

6Jarrett

Wow, first of all, I would like to say I'm very excited to see that my little write up has cause such a stir. It was never intended to do so; I just wanted to get some things off my chest.

I do feel like I have to defend myself a little bit. First of all, my comment about rednecks was not intended to stereotype. It was said in fun. I don't honestly believe that everyone who voted for Bush is uneducated. But think about this for a minute. I can guarantee that there are a large number of people who voted for Bush based on their religious believes and Bush’s religious beliefs. I think you would be hard pressed to find someone who voted for Kerry due to his or her religious beliefs. This comes down to the separation of church and state. I don’t believe they are as separate as they should be. Yes, I believe that “in God we trust� should be removed from your legal tender. I believe that a lot has changed since that was first put on our money. We live in a different society now. I believe that any church should be nowhere near our government. To me, no one should us their religious beliefs to help determine how they will vote.

I also don't believe that voting is un-American. I agree with Noah on gay marriage example of letting America down.

Dan, you know most of this already from our talks but I will post this for anyone else who is reading. I don’t like Bush. Simple as that. I have yet to hear any arguments that make me reconsider.

November 4, 2004

7Calvin

Something people often forget in the issue of abortion is money. Mexico, Canada, and Europe all allow legal abortions and will for a very very long time. To ban abortion in America will not stop Americans from getting abortions (why the same people who yell 'If you make gun ownership a crime then only criminals will own guns' don't understand this, I do not know). The rich and slutty will just go south or north or to Europe to get a trained doctor to perform their abortion. This means only poor girls will have unwanted children that they obviously cannot support, or the theoretical back alley abortionist (if you make abortions a crime, only criminals will perform abortions) come into the scene and theoretically rape, assault or botch the operation.
Abortion is an ugly choice and I would use every ounce of charm, compassion, and intellect to convince someone from getting an abortion but a ban just hurts poor people and then puts upon them the burden of a child they cannot support and do not want. How do these unwanted children expect to enjoy their life if their own creator did not want them created? Pro-Lifers are misdirected, unsympathetic, and careless. They should pause and think about the life of these children that they want so much to live and see what they have to look forward to; a family on welfare (YOU must now support this child), parents that look on them as mistakes, and remember picking on the dirty kid who didn't have the new $150 nikes? that's these kids. They won't go to college (probably won't finish high school), won't have successful jobs (more of YOUR money going to them) and somewhat ironically, they'll have unexpected children to keep the cycle going. Great job Pro-Lifers. We really need to make sure the poor have unwanted children.

November 4, 2004

8Amy

I just wanted to add to what Calvin had to say. I am 100% Pro-choice, but the thing that Pro-Lifers often forget is that Pro-Choice does not mean Pro-Abortion. But, I do support abortion in certain situations, and that's why we must fight to keep it an option. Also, Calvin is right-just b/c you make something illegal-doesn't mean people won't do it. That's when back-alley abortions happen, which is the kind of treatment that women in third world countries go through...It's bad enough that injustices like that happen to women in those countries, let's not let it come to that in America.

Let's not forget-choice means options. That means birth control. Family planning. Just b/c some people see sex as 'immoral' won't stop others from having it, so let's accept that and supply these people with some condoms!!

This is way off of the topic of Jarrett's post, but this is an issue I feel extremely sensitive about: MY BODY, MY CHOICE....do you hear me Bush?? Keep your hands off of my ovaries!! Let's not let the Republicans reverse Roe v. Wade!!

November 4, 2004

9Dan

Noah,

I thought I did support my point. My point point wasn't why we should have voted for Bush, you just assumed it was.

My point was to try and break the Bible Belt stereotype and to remind people that voting in and of itself is an American practice. No one let America down by voting one way or another.

As an American, I'm proud so many people did vote this year, as this tended to be a problem in past elections.

I went to bed on Nov. 2nd expecting to wake up to see John Kerry as our new president, even if I preferred Bush. NBC had the count at 207 (B) to 206 (K), and just read a statement that, after provisional ballots were cast, Ohio would go to Kerry. Kerry didn't conceed until 12 hours later. I might not had been happy at that point, but I certainly didn't think that my friends that voted for Kerry were letting America down.

November 5, 2004

10Jarrett

ok heres the deal, im not even worrying about punctuation and spelling right now. i felt let down because thats how anti bush i am. i know im not the only one who feels that way. most bush supporters were pro bush and not anti kerry. i, like many others, werent so much pro kerry but rather very very anit bush. i believe deep down in my soul electing bush was the worst thing for our country. so when someone votes for the worst thing for our country i feel let down. i am passionate about how i feel. nothing is going to change my mind and i dont expect to change other peoples mind. i was just trying to explain how i feel because i needed to do it for me. i needed to figure out why i feel the way i do.

November 5, 2004

11Noah Brier

Dan,

I understood your point. I got what you said that stereotyping is bad and I recommended you read one of my latest entries where I said:

People stop listening when you start stereotyping, however you may feel about those people that voted for George W. Bush, it helps no one to call them stupid. We all know and respect someone that voted for Bush. They obviously saw this whole thing differently. Everyone's vote is worth the same and they chose differently than you did. While I'm not claiming to understand them, name-calling towards anyone, including Bush, is not productive. Let's keep this civil and try to understand that they are people too, they just happen to be people who prioritize things differently.

We're on the same page on that one. I followed that up by asking you for the reasons you voted for Bush. I want to understand why you didn't let down this country, because in my eyes you voted for the candidate that was clearly the inferior. The one who had a proven track record of destruction. If it's because abortion is the most important thing in you life, then tell me and I'll respect it. But I want to know. I want to understand.

You specifically said that the war was not a reason for you to vote one way or another, so what was? That's what I want to know.

November 5, 2004

12Dan

Noah,

Sorry, I didn't get around to reading all the other posts until just now. (I think a lot of them are amazingly well done- especially Repugnant Republican, even if someone like me is the subject matter)

You are absolutely right in your response to stereotyping and, I would go further to say, I agree with you 100% on how you see people that voted for Bush. We might just be people that prioritize things differently.

But I think, to that matter, listing every reason I would support Bush over Kerry is just as counter productive as name calling. I don't think I could make anyone understand. All I can offer is I see the issues differently. You've probably heard every reason why from another who voted conservative, have a hundred counterpoints, to which you've heard a hundred more.

If I did go through, one at a time, and list why I would favor Bush to Kerry, I know what would happen, even if you or I don't want to admit it would. I stumbled onto this site via Jarrett's link, and I might have unwillingly opened Pandora's Box with my post. But if I go any further with explicit reasons I would not be helping anyone to understand, I would be inviting an arguement which I am not prepared to engage in. (I assure you I bleed blood and not Coca-Cola, but it wouldn't stop some people from saying otherwise)

I just finished reading all the listed writings (I happen to know Amy from the fraternity I mentioned earlier as well). I think that most of them raise great point's- especially Ben's. While our views may split us we are all united as Americans. I am so happy to live in this nation that we do, and I hope that we can all work together despite our differences.

November 5, 2004

13Noah Brier

Dan,

I respect what you have to say, but I can't help but feel as thought you backing down on this one. I asked you to step up to the plate and try to support your vote in words and you have refused. My problem here is that an uninformed vote is as bad as not voting. It's your civil duty to be an informed citizen, to understand the issues and to vote accordingly. Not to say that your vote was uninformed, necessarily, but I can't help but feel as though a huge portion of this country refuses to get involved in this debate. Just like you.

Thanks again for posting, though, I really do appreciate it and I hope that you spend more time reading the site.

November 5, 2004

14Dan

Ahhh... I'm sorry.

I didn't mean to leave that impression. I'll assure you that I'm informed on these issues- not because I was interested at first, but because they were hard to escape. In truth, I have a family member that is gay, and my first thoughts towards politics were sparked during a family debate almost two years ago as Kerry emerged as the most likely Democratic candidate.

I guess I am backing down on debating the issues, not because we think we can change each others minds, but because so much is a gray area I feel I don't disagree with you all that much. Just enough that I would support a different candidate. (I know to a lot of you this may seem outrageous if you are extremely pro-Kerry and anti-Bush at the same time- but before you jump down my throat just give it a little thought.)

You are right, Noah. Most of America is uninformed. A lot of America didn't think it was important to note. If you want to know at least the basis of my reasonings, I will tell you that my thoughts on most issues are centered around sociology and family issues. I'm happy my main point has been acknowledged by both you and Jarrett, and I'm glad to see other people I know are starting to surface here.

I will continue to visit and make comments now and then (I started paging through the earlier stuff) but please don't ask me to list every single reason to vote for Bush and against Kerry. It's not going to change what happened, and I will further alienate myself from the rest of the posters here, which wouldn't help because I'd rather like to stick around and comment on things that aren't as heated.

Thanks Noah, I can see you are very level-headed about this. I'm glad to see we can disagree without attacking each other :)

November 5, 2004

15Noah Brier

Fair enough Dan, but I am very disappointed. I urge you to read my response to my cousin's argument. He gave me his reasoning and I gave my retort, point-for-point. I think it's a healthy excercise and something that helps everyone to better understand both sides. As for not attacking you, it's my pleasure, glad that you can feel comfortable being a voice of opposition.

November 5, 2004